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Post by Nathan Milarta on Jul 29, 2013 8:38:17 GMT -5
What if more fighter aircraft got airborne on December 7th? What kind of outcome might have been?
Remember many of the USAAF pilots were high timed pilots. The few that did get airborne credited a great amount of the total Japanese aircraft shot down. Also don't forget the credits for damages.
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Post by fightnjoe on Jul 29, 2013 10:34:53 GMT -5
they definitely would have given the attackers more of a bloody nose.
joe
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Post by The Inspector on Jul 29, 2013 11:19:45 GMT -5
I don't think it would have made a great deal of difference. There was little to no real radio control or discipline available to vector aircraft to hot spots, there was no cohesive, organized defense plan in place, no real serious practice intercepts had been flown in the months before.
Pearl was sort of a vacation tour. The senior staff was more in the dark than Joe Grunt was, a fair number of pilots were recovering from Saturday night drinks. I'd liken the 'defense' of Hawaii as equal to The Marx Bros. meet The Three Stooges @ W.C. Fields' house and Adms. Kimmel and King were very culpable for the sorry state of unpreparedness-Kimmell took the beating and King kept rising in power and rank as the war went on.
The tendency that continued all through the war of sending the oldest, least loved crap equipment to the edges of the fight started before the war with P-26's and P-43's along with a pitiful number of P-40's in the Philippines and early P-40's in Hawaii in small handfuls and the poor souls in the Aleutian Islands throughout the war. I'm pretty sure the Japanese military was more than aware of the capabilities of all the aircraft out on the edges and knew they were easily licked with superior tactics and better disciplined formations and except for a few B-17's. they knew the U.S. had no retaliatory aircraft with anywhere near the range or punch to do any damage to the attacking fleet.
The major reason that CURTISS was kept busy building P-40's was simple. They were in production, were an 'acceptable' fighter, they could be dealt out like potato chips to the Allies on Lend-lease on a 'we don't really want them back' plan who then used them to chip away at the fringes of the enemy as a semi-dangerous swarm of flies that could 'pick off' the occasional enermy aircraft or armor, sort of like very fine sandpaper, it had a grinding effect but was hardly noticeable in small doses.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 21:11:48 GMT -5
I agree with you 100 percent on this Inspector.
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Post by surfinbattchief on Jul 29, 2013 23:09:30 GMT -5
This discussion has been a great eye opener. Great perspective from all.
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Post by Nathan Milarta on Jul 30, 2013 7:52:44 GMT -5
I'm just wondering if the Japanese saw any moderate air defense in the air if it would have made them turn back and abort the attack?
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Post by The Inspector on Jul 30, 2013 9:58:29 GMT -5
The bushido spirit would have probably made them press on even if only one aircraft got through. Right up until the very end of the war (and in a couple of instances years later)the order, and the sociological goal was 'never surrender, it shows weakness' Saving of face above all else has been the guiding tenant and prime directive in Asian society for half a zillion years.
Remember they were amazed that we would expend 50 trucks to save one wounded guy and they would risk 50 guys to save a truck.
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Post by surfinbattchief on Jul 30, 2013 11:39:05 GMT -5
Very well said!
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Post by Steve Nelson on Aug 7, 2013 2:26:51 GMT -5
A fascinating read is "Flyboys" by James Bradley (author of "Flags of our Fathers.) He goes into considerable depth about the mentality of the Japanese military..the senior officers referred to the enlisted men as "five cent men," because that's what it cost to send a death notice to their family. The whole "Bushido Code/Samurai Spirit" thing was actually fairly recent..the militarists made most of it up in the early 20th century to whip up a sense of nationalism and blind devotion among the ranks. Drifting OT, I understand the current version of Radical Islam followed by the Taliban and Al-Qaida is similar..it only dates back to the late 19th century, when it was concocted by one particularly outspoken cleric.
The book also takes an unvarnished look at America's history, particularly our shameful treatment of Native Americans and Filipinos..not for the purpose of "America bashing," but to give some cultural background of what led us and the Japanese into conflict. The book is not for the faint of heart though, as Bradley details the atrocities committed by the Japanese against POWs and civilians..particularly incidents of cannibalism, which was disturbingly common, especially among troops sent to far-flung battlegrounds and expected to fend for themselves without resupply.
SN
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Post by yardbird78 on Aug 8, 2013 19:25:49 GMT -5
War is a terrible, nasty, ugly thing and WAY TOO FEW people realize that terrible, nasty & ugly things happen during war.
Darwin
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Post by Steve Nelson on Aug 8, 2013 23:54:09 GMT -5
Absolutely!
I can't remember the exact quote, or who said it (a Civil War general maybe?) but it was something along the lines of " it's a good think that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."
A coiple years ago my wife got me the HBO miniseries "The Pacific" on Blue-Ray, but I still haven't managed to watch it all the way through. I've watched "Band of Brothers" a dozen times and love it, but "The Pacific" is far darker..not unlike the real war.
SN
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 1:26:10 GMT -5
A fascinating read is "Flyboys" by James Bradley (author of "Flags of our Fathers.) He goes into considerable depth about the mentality of the Japanese military..the senior officers referred to the enlisted men as "five cent men," because that's what it cost to send a death notice to their family. The whole "Bushido Code/Samurai Spirit" thing was actually fairly recent..the militarists made most of it up in the early 20th century to whip up a sense of nationalism and blind devotion among the ranks. Drifting OT, I understand the current version of Radical Islam followed by the Taliban and Al-Qaida is similar..it only dates back to the late 19th century, when it was concocted by one particularly outspoken cleric. SN 5 Cents Men ... I did not know that! ... Steve Nelson and thanks for sharing it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 1:27:57 GMT -5
Absolutely! I can't remember the exact quote, or who said it (a Civil War general maybe?) but it was something along the lines of " it's a good think that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." A coiple years ago my wife got me the HBO miniseries "The Pacific" on Blue-Ray, but I still haven't managed to watch it all the way through. I've watched "Band of Brothers" a dozen times and love it, but "The Pacific" is far darker..not unlike the real war. SN The Pacific is darker and I just don't like it as much I like the Band of Brothers ... its really not my cup of tea but I do enjoy The Pacific in some degree.
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garym
Propeller Driven
 
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Post by garym on Nov 12, 2013 11:59:54 GMT -5
By "accident" I found out a wonderful way to watch movies that are also books, at the same time! I have done that with Band of Bros as well as The Dam Busters and it makes it fun to read a few chapters, then watch an episode (of B o B) and so on. With that idea of mine, I have yet to start in on The Pacific but I will set aside the time to read/watch that at the same time as well.
Back to the What If...... keep in mind that the Japanese planes came into PH and the surrounding airfields from many various routes. We could have had 100 P-40s just offshore one side of the island and they may have never seen any attacking planes!
I just watched Tora Tora Tora again yesterday and it was the complete lack of communication, from the White House, Dept State, War Dept, the USN and USAAF and US Army on the island, to the guys who took the incoming call about the radar sightings some 200 miles out, who goofed up here.
There were some "voices" out there telling the powers that be, that any attack would come on a Sunday morning and that it would be a sneak attack with no warning....... hence the book "At Dawn We Slept"!
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