garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 14:47:44 GMT -5
The attack was very harmful and we all know that had they put all three USN carriers into the mud at PH that they would have rolled into Midway and northern Australia as well as probably invading Hawaii in early 1942.
But, what "mistakes" did they make on Dec 7th and in the following days? There are many. Had they not made these critical errors, we'd have been on our heels well into 1943 and maybe beyond.
Let's take a look at the most glaring mistakes.......
1) They never attacked the massive fuel farms right at PH. These held fuel oil and avgas for the aircraft. Several well placed bombs may have destroyed a whole field of tanks. Not only would we have lost the fuel, but would have no tanks to later re-fill. A double loss.
2) They never attacked the Sub Base. This entire area would have been so simple to have taken out. There were 25 of the massive fule tanks that were adjacent to the Sub Bse. Just a few days after the attack, some of the subs topped off their oil tanks, loaded torpedoes and departed. Destination: Japanese waters. The chance to not only destroy the many subs and tenders and to have destroyed the repair shops, etc and the base itself was a huge mistake.
3) They never attacked the Repair Dry Docks. Many of the damaged ships were later repaired and put back in action right from PH. Otherwise, they would have had to be towed back to the States. Big mistake here.
4) Many of the Officers in the attacking fleet strongly suggested a third wave of attacking aircraft....... especially those returning from the attack itself. Think of # 1-3 above to see that there were in fact, many, many important targets still sitting there untouched. Big mistake. They had PH on the ropes and they let up.
5) With a 6 carrier fleet and the USN only having 3 carriers, they should have formed a smaller Attack Fleet and gone out looking for the US carriers. Even if they only found and sank one, another huge blow to our Pacific Fleet.
6) They should have stationed 6-8-10 IJN subs near PH. They would know that our three carriers would be coming back to PH and they could have sunk them all, right there. Had any of our ships escaped the attack by coming out of the harbor, they would have been dead meat to the IJN subs.
As devastating as the actual attack was that morning, it's easy to see how easily it could have been a LOT worse!
|
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 14:48:51 GMT -5
Look at the 9 and 11 o'clock positions to Ford Island to see two of the huge fuel farms!  |
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 14:50:37 GMT -5
|
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 14:51:42 GMT -5
Here are some of the repair Dry Docks after the attack  .....already hard at work..... Notice the oil streaked waters..... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 15:52:41 GMT -5
These posts are incredible ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 15:55:04 GMT -5
Here are some of the repair Dry Docks after the attack .....already hard at work..... Notice the oil streaked waters..... This is the first time that I ever seen oil and water shown like this and this picture worth a thousand words many times unfold ... Thanks for sharing these garym! |
|
|
|
Post by Jim Broshot on Nov 27, 2013 16:18:56 GMT -5
I count about 15 subs, three tenders
Not that many submarines and tenders actually in Pearl Harbor on December 7th
USN submarine deployment from Hawaii as of December 7 (based on Clay Blair's book)
Off Midway: Argonaut and Trout
Returning to Pearl from Midway: Thresher
Off Wake: Tambor and Triton
At Pearl Harbor: Tautog, Dolphin, Narwhal, Cachelot (with tender Pelias)
At Lahaina Roads: Gudgeon [first boat to sail on war patrol 11 December]
en route to Pearl from California: Plunger, Pompano, Pollack (scheduled
to arrive December 7)
|
|
|
|
Post by navairdave (Dave) on Nov 27, 2013 16:25:08 GMT -5
As mention, the repair facilities were not destroyed, especially the Dry Docks. Had they Dry Docks been destroyed it would have taken a year or more to repair the ships refloated at Pearl instead of the months it actually took. Also, when USS Yorktown returned fro the Coral Sea and required repairs the Dry Docks were there and ready.
Sinking the Battleships was a priority but the Japanese Admirals must have realized that the Carriers they were using were becoming the dominant force in the coming war. Yes, they should has gone in search of the U.S. Carries, but it is my understanding that they did not have sufficient fuel, ie tankers/oilers, to conduct the search. Adm Nagumo feared for his ships and lacked the insight in to the future of Naval Warfare.
|
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 18:55:44 GMT -5
I count about 15 subs, three tendersNot that many submarines and tenders actually in Pearl Harbor on December 7th) I had to re-write my original post about three times due to the site being "jumpy" with regards to posting photos and I did not mean to insinuate that those 15 subs were at PH the morning of the attack. However, the four that were there helped to shoot down one or two airplanes and all four were soon sent out on missions. Two thirds of the attacking planes that were lost, were shot down on the second wave and this made Nagumo hesitant about a third attack. Initially, Yamamoto supported Nagumo's decision, but later regretted that an additional attack was not launched. |
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 27, 2013 19:12:54 GMT -5
Adm Nagumo feared for his ships and lacked the insight in to the future of Naval Warfare. Nagumo also feared that his fleet would be well within range of land based US bombers. He had no Intel as to what strength our bomber forces had. I shudder to think what Zeros would have done to B-18s! There were some B-17s there and to my knowledge, none of the flight of B-17s that arrived during the attack were shot down. I know that one of then landed on a golf course! Here's one that had a rough landing on Bellows Field.....  |
|
|
|
Post by Nathan Milarta on Nov 28, 2013 9:41:42 GMT -5
Big mistake: not attacking fuel farm and repair facility. As well as not getting the Carriers but that was beyond their control.
Im not sure the B-17's would be anything other then a nuisance to the Japanese fleet if they were able to attack. Attacking shipping with level high flying bombers had mixed results with more misses then anything. B-17's did lots of ship bombing in 42 and it was decided skip bombing and strafing would bring better results. If anything had we found the Japanese fleet and able to make a mission with B-17's I would think perhaps the B-17's would have broken up the Japanese ship formations and cause some confusion. But other then that I can't see much results.
|
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 28, 2013 10:05:34 GMT -5
I agree. The bombing with B-17s that we did in the Phillipines was basically useless. The bombing that did work against the HMS Repulse, etc in Indonesia was done at lower levels like was done at PH.
However, what the B-17s and B-18s could have done would have been to have spotted and tracked the fleet. Subs out of Midway to intercept, or send the US carriers after them might have then been an option. Another good reason to read the twin books about Dec 7th and 8th!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2013 13:49:00 GMT -5
I often wonder what would Nagumo would done if he decided to go for the "third attack" ... what would be his "targets" ... to me it's could be any number of things and I'm so glad that he did not and to me he should had listen to his pilots coming back and his pilots wanted to attack again - but some unknown reasons he failed to heed the pilots requests and the rest was history.
This has been very interesting reading materials - and I for one enjoyed reading everyone of these posts and I can understand why the many choices that Nagumo should had done for the third attack on Pearl Harbor.
|
|
garym
Propeller Driven
Posts: 144
|
Post by garym on Nov 28, 2013 22:24:31 GMT -5
One of his reasons was that by the time they re-fueled and re-armed the planes, flew them in and back to the carriers, they would be landing at night aboard the ship. Plus, fuel for the ships was an issue. He's obviously nothing like Gen Patton who's motto was, "Attack, attack, attack"! He ran his tanks until they out ran their fuel supply, but that was just him!
Apparently the dry docks and fuel farms may have been on the target list, had a third stike been ordered. But wow, what an easy target on the first or second waves!
|
|
|
|
Post by Nathan Milarta on Nov 29, 2013 9:55:00 GMT -5
So in the end the Battleships should have been last on the bucket list? Sure they were big beautiful sitting targets but perhaps not the best idea to waste bombs on. Now perhaps the submarine base would have been better along with fuel farm and dry docks. The Battleship was sadly a obsolete type by ww2 standards. As we all know the Carrier was the major deciding factor in ww2. Look how many Royal Navy Battleships had been sunk during ww2?  |
|
